Part 14: Oct 22 – Nov 2, ’20

10/22/20 — Tonight is the Final Presidential Debate.

10/22/20 — Well I just finished watching the 60 Minutes interview with Trump where he walked out at the end. Made for
very frustrating watching but during the course of the interview he denied all that “lock her up” business re Whitmer. Said it never happened when we know it did. The whole interview went on like that. Expect more of the same in tonight’s debate.  
Mary Ginn Weinland

10/22/20 — As an antidote to all the Covid and political news, I have some nice news to share about my family.  You might not know that among all the things they do, my daughter and son-in-law also planted acres of coffee bean plants on their property and harvested their first crops this year (after 2 years of growing.)   Evidently, Santa Barbara has a good climate for some special coffee.  There was a short article on the Frinj coffee website where their coffee is just about to be sold for $75 a pound (and that is the cheaper strain.  Evidently their big seller is Geisha at $300 a pound!   I guess they were just lucky about where they picked to grow that strain and combination wind and sun yielded an exceptional crop.  But $300?!?!?  Really?!?!?!?)
     And then my grandson has a featured article in our local Montecito Journal, about his time at Purdue University Indianapolis. Walker is on page 20 of the Montecito Journal in a well-written  letter from  the university in a continuing series of interviews with recent graduates of Santa Barbara High School.
     I am very proud of them all!  Kim
* Sounds fabulous -did you get some?  Dee
* No!  They have only tried it a couple of times themselves but eventually they hope to open a tasting room on their property—post Covid!  I’ll keep you posted!  Kim
* Fantastic!  Frannie Blair

10/22/20 —  Kim, Congratulations on all of your family’s successes.  My granddaughter is headed out to California for school next year,  She will be rowing for Stanford.  Not exactly in your back yard but it feels that way from CT.   Marian

10/22/20 — I’m a proud Nonny too – great grands- all with greatparents! Wonderful success story of Kirsten’s coffee farming☕. One of our granddaughters, post college,  is shucking oysters in Portland Me. but would love to be involved in sustainable and organic farming. Covid is responsible for many significant changes in career paths and job achievements. Sherry Urner

10/22/20 — You have reason to be proud!  Our oldest grandson and his wife have a new baby… our first great grandchild.  He s so cute and alert.. Have some great pictures…will try to send one or two iI can figure out how to do it! Betsy

10/22/20 — It just ended and I have never felt more depressed and miserable.  Our friendships will hold us together, but I am devastated.  Hugs — Liz WF

10/22/20 — Agreed!  Frannie Blair
10/22/20 —I agree. I wonder what drug Trump was on. Unfortunately Trump’s lies are so much more believable when he doesn’t rant and rave. But they are still lies.  Barbara HH
10/22/20 —  I had the opposite reaction! I thought Biden got him on almost every lie.  And his “Hey Mr Lincoln” was beautiful.
 Sue W Carr
10/22/20 —  And Trump didn’t catch on to it!  He had to have Biden explain it to him.  Frannie Blair
10/22/20 — I really thought Biden did well – concrete, and speaking directly to the American people.  He comes across as someone who cares about ordinary people.  
10/22/20 — I planned to watch only the first 4 minutes (2 minutes of statements from each) but ended up watching the first hour and then listening to NPR’S analysis. Glad I have already voted for Biden.
Jennifer B-C Seaver

10/22/20 — I agree with you, Sue.  I thought Biden was mostly on his game, although he seemed to tire near the end (looking at watch, etc. — and who wouldn’t!)  Yet, the final question of “what would you say to those who voted against you on inauguration day if you are elected” fed right into Biden’s main unity theme as the American President who works for all perfectly,  and he was quite eloquent in summing up just how he reviewed the country — not blue, not red, not black nor brown nor white, not rich or poor but American,  and how he would do the job if elected.   Trump evaded the question totally, choosing instead to ramble on about something totally off the mark for the two minutes allowed him, leading me to think that the question stumped him because he really hadn’t thought about that.  So, Biden ended on a very positive upbeat note, and Trump was nowheresville.  That was echo’d later in the night on CNN’s focus group of “undecided voters” when asked “who won the debate.”  They polled as Trump = zero, Biden = nine, a tie = two.  Judy K   Judy Marshall Kennedy

10/22/20 — Why, Liz?  I thought Biden did fine – you’re not a secret Trumper, are you?  I think Biden did fine, and so did most of the pundits I heard, so maybe we can all sleep well tonight. Dee

10/22/20 —  Me, a secret Trumper?  Good lord, no.   My answer:  Because I thought Trump did the best at his always elusive and lying game — change the subject and attack Biden and keep talking.  I was really annoyed at the moderator a couple of time when I think she should have cut off his microphone.  We know he was lying about lots of things, but the uneducated voter doesn’t. 
     Because I thought Trump did really well, and because I was disappointed with how weak Biden looked, I was really depressed.  Still am.

    Wheaties, bless your positive outlook.  Wish I had the same.    Off to rehearsal — hugs to you all.  Thanks for all of your positive words.  xxx Liz WF

10/23/20 — I agree with several of you!   I thought Biden did well at the end also…he answered the last question well and Trump has no answer to that as he can’t stand people who don’t vote for him.  Biden was upbeat most of the time, and Trump kept up with his old, worn lies.  I, also, however, was a little depressed as was Liz.  Not sure why, but I didn’t sleep well as I kept seeing Trump’s awful face.   He never smiled, and he always has this dumpy, but scary look..his lips always downward and his blank-looking eyes.  I cannot even think of another four years of him.  Betsy

10/24/20 — More than 54 million people have already voted!  (Including 15 million in person)  In 2016 the total vote was 47 million.  Remember that Hilary “won” by 3  million votes and trump “won” by 70,000 in 3 key states.  Not 1 person, 1 vote.  I often look at the best polling and statistics site:  (but it can’t take Russian (or Iranian, or…) interference into account.)  Ann Merchant Boesgaard

10/26/20 — Ann — Perhaps you meant this, but I thought I heard on one of the News program that the 50 million plus figure for people who have voted so far this year, is 1/3 of the total of ALL votes cast in 2016.  If true, your 47 million figure would likely be the 2016 total for the same period as this year’s 54 million.  Yes?  Judy  Judy Marshall Kennedy

10/26/20 —  Yes, Judy et al.  I misinterpreted that.  The comparison was to the EARLY voting.   In 2016 there were 136 million votes cast in total for President.  And Hilary  “won” by 3 million.  48% to 46%.  129 million votes were for either Clinton or  Trump and the rest were for some 30(!) other candidates incl. Gary Johnson and Jill Stein getting 7 million total.  My source for that is the official Federal Elections Commission (FEC). AnnMB


10/25/20 — Thanks, Liz Thornton, for your movie list.  Last night Bryan and I enjoyed an evening at the movies, this time we watched “Tea With Mussolini”, one of Liz and Ed’s favorites.  We LOVED it.  Thank you so much for that marvelous list.  Hugs and cheers —
Liz Webfoot

10/25/20 — You are welcome, dear Liz, and we are really glad to have been able to contribute something positive to your lives.  Believe me, we are in the same state of anxiety, depression, fearfulness, etc., etc. as you are.  Hugs,  Liz T
*  seem to have missed your list, Liz Thornton.   Could you send it again, please?   Many thanks, Bobbi
* Judy (Marshall Kennedy) just included it in her latest email.  Liz T.

10/20/20 — Andy and I watched “The Way I See It” on Amazon Prime (free). It is a stunning 100 minutes of photographs of Presidents, and particularly Obama, – captured moments of stress, compassion, emotion, fun and family. And the photographer to the President, Pete Souza, contrasts the character of Obama and Trump. The piece includes Obama singing Amazing Grace in Charleston…
    I Strongly recommend And have the Kleenex ready!  Sherry Urner

10/28/10 — Here is Friedman’s column today – a moving performance:of “When the President Sang Amazing Grace”

Couldn’t be more appropriate!  Dee Abrahamse

10/28/20 —  Thanks, Dee.  On this particularly difficult day for me, that gave me a certain calm and hopefulness.  Cheers — Liz WebFoot

10/28/20 — Was trying to check if something was a scam today but my bookmarks list has been eliminated from my computer and I can’t remember the name of the spoof checker I’ve been using for years!  Can someone remind me of what it is called?  Thanks!  Kim
* I use Snopes.  Barbara Hartt Hise
* That’s it, Barbara!   Many thanks!  Kim
* I too use   Alice
* I don’t have one, but it sounds like a good idea!  Dee

10/27/20 –Watched “The Trial of the Chicago 7” last night, new and now streaming on Netflix, starring a host of great actors like Mark Rylance as Attorney Kuntsler, Frank Lagella as Judge Hoffman, etc.  Brought back many Vietnam memories, good and bad, which had grown spotty for me over the last fifty years.   A good reminder that while times now are chaotic and scarey, the 60’s were even more so.  You, your kids, and theirs might like this one a lot.
     Also, at Betsy’s suggestion (because her kids are hooked on it), Dan and I have been binge-watching the TV series, “Schitt’s Creek,” which has just completed its 6th year by winning every single Comedy award at last Spring’s Emmys (i.e. Best Actor, Actress, Best Supporting Actor and Actress, Direction, Writing, etc., which was the first time that ever happened at the Emmys, and well deserved too, I think).   It’s very, very funny, laugh-out-loud so, with clever writing, over-the-top acting, a bit spicey here and there but not offensive  —  the perfect antidote for difficult and troubling times.  We’re hooked and now starting Year 5 and not tired of it yet; there are 6 years in the can, 12 twenty-minute episodes each year.  BUT, I share Betsy’s initial warning about the first 2-3 episodes of Year 1 which are totally inane and ridiculous and make you say “this isn’t for me,”  Be patient.  You need to get beyond this as once the plotlines get going and the actors start to give their characters depth, you too won’t be able to stop watching.

     As you can see, I’ve added this note to our previous movie recommendation list, highlighted by Liz T’s selections (in case that list has slipped “below the fold” and you want to review it — just scroll down).  Surpised to find “Impromptu” on her list, as it’s a movie that is little known but an utter delight, as I think I mentioned in a previous email, especially for anyone into music and Chopin.  A period piece with great costumes and settings, it stars a host of our favorites i.e. Hugh Grant of all people plays Chopin — and really well done.  But, Mandy Patimkin and Bernadette Peters are also in it. Judy   Judy Marshall Kennedy

10/27/20 — I have read many books, but STRONGly recommend reading CASTE, the origins of our Discontents, by Isabel Wilkerson, It is a masterful portrait of an unseen phenomenon in America and makes such sense and is sadly true. It is an original view of our history and an eye opener to a deep rooted problem right here in America that we share with India and NAzi Germany.
Hope that some of you can read it and I would love to get your Views. Stay safe all and VOTE. Fondly, Bette

10/27/20 — I just finished American Dirt, which is also an excellent will not think the same of “migrants” after you read it!   Well written and a real page turner!    Betsy Wilson
 *  “Fried Green Tomatoes” LWF
*  YES!!  I’d add that to my list. Liz T.
*  Thanks for the recommendations Judy.  I still do “red envelope” so I can’t get “The Trial…” yet, but it’s now on my Wish List.  I have added the first season of “Schitt’s Creek” to our queue. And thanks for including the movie recommendation list in this email. “Bobbie” asked me for it today. Now I don’t haveto search through my emails to find it. Liz T.

10/28/20 –I’m a little embarrassed to say, but “My Cousin Vinny” is one of our favorite films.  Another one of mine is “Big Country” with Burl Ives, Charlton Heston, and Jean Simmons. Hugs —
Liz Webfoot

10/28/20 — We LOVED “My Cousin Vinny”! Keep the additions coming. Liz T.

10/28/20 — Charles and I are movie fans, and 3 of my very favorites are RainMan, O Brother Where Art Thou, and Quartet. The various suggestions coming in are great, fun to see what people like.  Nothing just now, though, is really able to stop my anxiety about the election.  AND the time between that and Inauguration Day.  Going to be a very tough ride.  Hang in, everyone!  Sally Stearns Gipson

10/29/20 — Andy and I watched “The Way I See It” on Amazon Prime (free). It is a stunning 100 minutes of photographs of Presidents, and particularly Obama, – captured moments of stress, compassion, emotion, fun and family. And the photographer to the President, Pete Souza, contrasts the character of Obama and Trump. The piece includes Obama singing Amazing Grace in Charleston…
I Strongly recommend And have the Kleenex ready!  Sherry Urner

10/28/20 — From graduation pictures!!  Someone recently wondered if there was a picture of our graduation Laurel Chain…
Alice McG. Doering

*  And there it is. Thanks, Alice.  Marian
*  Were we really so young? Jennifer Bagster-Collins Seaver
* I have asked for such a photo.  I asked on our website who might have a photo of our graduation Laurel Chain.  I asked around the time when I first became in charge of the website.  I never received an answer.  But I can’t figure out when I asked and where that photo of that graduating class appears on the website..  Thanks. 

Liz Hottel Barrett, aka Webfoot

 10/28/20 –  Alice wrote me that she was going through her father’s slides and found one of her and me so perhaps it is from the same source rather than having been online!
     Just guessing…. (and I probably have some in my father’s slides too if I were just disciplined enough to go through them!   Congrats to you Alice!)   Kim

10/28/20 — Now here’s a question.  Who can fill in the names?   The only people I can identify are Mary Lynn and Alice in front.  I remember several faces but no complete names except that of Casey Stengel second from the rear.  I’m going to make a numbered outline so people can contribute from their memories — and then I can post it on the website.  Give me some time and I’ll send it in.  Hugs — Liz Webfoot

(10/28/20 — Editor’s note:  Okay, so from that day forward there was an hilarious bunch of guesses as to who was what number on the chart.  It went on for a long time, and as of November 27, it still continues.  At some point there will be the final list for all of us to enjoy.)

10/28/20– Here is Friedman’s column today and a moving performance:of “When the President Sang Amazing Grace”

Couldn’t be more appropriate! Dee Abrahamse
* Thanks, Dee.  On this particularly difficult day for me, it gave me a certain calm and hopefulness. Webfoot
10/28/20 –It’s weird, Kim (and Alice), that Alice was going through her father’s slides.  But coincidentally just this morning we started going through stacks of horrors that we have to move out of our office for work about to be done.  And here was my old V-8 photo which we had taken when we made our record.  It gave me a lift!  
Members of the Class of 1961, left to right (leaving blanks for those from other classes):
     Top row sitting:  _,  _,  Liz (Hottel)
     Back row standing:  _,  Kim,  _ ,  Paula (Whitney),  Ding,  Rocki,  _,  Babbie,  _
     Front row sitting: Dottie, Sue (Rhodes), Sally (Stearns), _
We were all skinny and adorable – and so lucky to be able to sing with so many classmates!  I think all of us are in the email chat group except for Paula.  Am I right? Cheers and hugs, Liz Hottel Barrett, proud member of the V-8’s.
* That picture makes me happy too and probably why I remember us singing in our plaid skirts and sweaters, rather than our usual uniform!  Kim
* Oh, dear, It makes me weep remembering I had to  quit senior year. Can I cut and paste my face into picture?  In any case the harmonies have never left me and I can still smell the coffee at the CI.  Keep up the songs everyone.  Love, Chris Hollister Hila

10/31/20 –Thanks to whoever reminded us of the movie “Wag the Dog.”   Dan and I watched and loved it once again last night.  Great fun and totally timely of course — and I had forgotten a lot of the details and how it all turned out, so it was a real treat for an anxious time. Judy K  Judy Marshall Kennedy

10/31/20 — For our class the election in 1960 was our first chance to vote – voting age then was 21.  I remember watching the Kennedy-Nixon debate at the astronomy professor’s home.  (And, yes, Nixon’s 5-o’clock shadow.)  Also, I remember voting in Rochester, NY, so I must have gone home to vote that November 8, 1960.  Did we all do that?  There was no real early voting or absentee voting then.  I recall pulling on that lever in the voting booth for JFK.
Anyone have memories of that?
This is now the 16th (!!!) presidential election for us.  I hope everyone has voted already. Ann Merchant Boesgaard

10/31/20 — I was still not old enough to vote, age 21, in Massachusetts.  So this is only my 15th Presidential election.  And my 80th birthday will be this December – with no party, no nothing.   Bryan, too, turns 80 one week earlier.  We are really sorry to miss out on all the festivities that might have been. We can’t figure out how we might visit with our grandaughter and boyfriend (whom we’ve not met) when they come from Dubai to Philly in December.  We’ll figure out something, but that certainly won’t include hugs.  Ann, I certainly remember vividly the Nixon/Kennedy debate.
     My singing group at the community college met up to sing together on Friday — just 16 of us, all masked,  in the gym spaced 10 feet apart, with the ventilation system on, clean everything (floor mat and chair) and plenty of hand sanitizer.  First time for all of us.  I could hear only the piano — and I did not feel at all threatened.  It was a little bit scary but fun.  The college obviously made a statement about its support for the arts.  Expensive statement!
     Only three more days.  I’ve been phonebanking for Pennsylvania to get out the vote, and my last sessions are on Monday.  I’m playing golf on Tuesday. And then …. Hugs to you all — Liz Webfoot 

10/30/31 — I know I voted. I remember pulling the lever. But to have gone home to Philadelphia (miss classes for two or three days?) and back right away? Without a car? I’ll have to think about that. It does not compute. Frannie Blair

10/31/20 — A mystery for me, too, on when/how I voted. I remember watching the debate– TV on stage in Wilbur. And I remember thinking how dumb I was to register in MD as Independent, which meant I couldn’t vote in a primary! But I could register, since although I wasn’t 21, I would be (Oct 7) before the election. Somehow, I voted in MD. There must have been absentee balloting (think Armed Services voting overseas), but I don’t remember any details, only that I voted for JFK and was appalled by RMN’s stubbled 5 o’clock shadow! Also remember listening to WBZ-Boston late at night to underground hit, “Big John, now you’re the president, Big John, you’re tougher than cement, Ay, yay, yay, you’re the leader of the US Ay, yay, yay…” Also remember the insistent radio ad, “Forward with Foster Furcolo,” which we corrupted to “Fester with Foster…” —Rocki Hill Hughes

10/31/20 — Like many of you I assume I must’ve gone home to Winchester to vote but don’t remember it I know I did vote. Don’t forget to set your clocks back tonight. Dottie

10/31/20 — I was too young as my birthday was in December.  I do remember working for a Democratic State delegate who didn’t win.  I was SO disappointed!  But I think I have voted in most elections since then, even when I was living abroad from 1997-1983! Fingers crossed Kim (and yes, I did vote early and confirmed that my vote will count!)  Kim

11/1/20 — So glad Liz you are phone banking for Pennsylvania!  We need all the help we can get in PA.   I wrote 400 “get out the vote” postcards:  200 to PA  and 200 to Florida addresses.  A drop in the bucket but I hope will help a little!  Alice

11/1/20 — Yes, Alice, I wrote postcards, too, and I much prefer writing postcards and letters than calling people.  But “get out the vote” is easier than persuasive politics in a state where you don’t know the local candidates.  PA scares me to death.  I’m working tomorrow morning, and then that’s it.  Keeping my fingers crossed.  Cheers — Liz Hottel Barrett (aka Liz Webfoot)

11/1/20 Liz, You know I feel the same.  And I also wrote 400 “get out the vote” letters for Vote Forward, 200 to PA and 200 to Texas.  Can’t thank you enough for calling in PA and thank you, Alice, for the postcards.  Now I feel I should be signing up for “Protect the vote” events being organized for Nov. 4, but haven’t done so yet.  I only hope that they won’t be needed, but I am a pessimist, so I think being prepared is essential. Liz T.

11/1/20 — I’m sure I voted in the 1960 election and there must have been absentee voting in PA at that time.  I’m pretty sure I didn’t go home to vote.  What I remember most about the election is standing on the steps of the Mass. capitol building in Springfield to greet Kennedy at one of his rallies.  I was taking a PoliSci class with Miss Schuck and I think the whole class went to the rally.  Does anyone else remember that?   Nony Moore Barr

11/1/20 — I remember my dad hearing Kennedy speak at Springfield College when he was a candidate for president. Dad came home and told us Kennedy gave the wrong speech🌝 Dad taught English at the college. Jennifer B-C Seaver 

11/1/20 — I,too, was too young to vote. My parents were passionately anti-Kennedy. They were in Virginia; we were in Massachusetts and he was youngish And essentially a local guy.  I was actually glad that I couldn’t vote, But as the conversations  whirled around the college, I learned that I could think for myself. I did not have to vote the way my parents did. I remained independent until I ran for school committee in Granby In the late 70s. The 1960 Election proved to be a real growth experience for me. Voting wasn’t necessary. Thinking About And supporting The candidate of my choice were the two seeds planted by the 1960 election.
     This year like most of us, I am on tenterhooks, concerned About the outcome.  Meg/Maggie

11/1/20 — I have two pretty clear memories about that election.  I went up to an office somewhere on campus and got my absentee ballot (for Kennedy) notarized.  I certainly wouldn’t have gone home to Illinois.  (With an October birthday I just had turned 21)   I also think (Judy or Betsy can correct me) that in No Rocky we rented a TV to watch the debate in the dorm living room. Best to all, Ellen Fetter Gille11/1/20 — I was too young to vote and was in Scotland for the year! I don’t remember paying very much attention to the Kennedy election. In later years I also learned that I didn’t have to mimic my parents party affiliation, and I was an involved Dem. in our Ct years. Still a committed Dem – with all fingers and toes crossed Sherry Urner  😥

11/1/20 — Ellen –I’m embarassed to say that I don’t remember much about that election at all.  Hopefully, Betsy’s memory is better.
Judy K  Judy Marshall Kennedy  1

11/1/20 — I was too young to vote too, Meg, but I remember Judy and Betsy went door to door in the town soliciting votes before the election and Sallie S.E.Austin and I went to a campaign event at Boston Square Garden and managed to sneak up to the stage where John Kenneth Galbraith was speaking in support of Kennedy.
Barbara Williamson Bucholtz

11/1/20 — I remember watching the debate in the Pearson’s living room.
     My parents picked me up some time before I sent in my absentee ballot to go to a wedding.  I was all set to vote for JFK. My father was a moderate Republican whom I trusted and admired more than anyone else in my life, probably ever. I let him talk me out of voting for JFK, a vote I still regret and I have never let anyone talk me out of a vote since!
     I also remember taking a bus to Boston Garden the night before Election Day. JFK, who had come back to MA to vote, appeared in person. Like Obama’s return to Chicago on election eve 2008. Does anyone else remember going to that? Barbara Hartt Hise

11/1/20 — Interesting to hear who was and wasn’t able to vote because of age.  We have a proposition on our ballot stating that anyone who will be 18 by the general election should be able to vote in the primary at 17,  Sounds good to me – I voted for it.

11/1/20 — I had a birthday yesterday but I can’t recall voting in 1960. Jennifer B-C Seaver

11/2/20 — Belated Happy Birthday Jennifer!  🎂💐🎉Kim

1/11/20 — I was too young also, to vote for JFK but I was totally smitten with him and did lots of campaigning for him.
     Also taking a class with Vicki Schuck at the time but did not go to the rally in Springfield. Instead, Miss Schuck was selling tickets to one of the Inaugural Balls in DC and Ruth Cooney and I bought some for us and our boyfriends.  I think I paid a total of $25 for 2 tickets.
     We all drove to DC the day before the Inauguration.  There was a huge snow storm that night before the Inauguration and it was freezing cold.  None of that was predicted so we had no boots and no really warm clothes with us.  We stood outside for a very long time watching the Inaugural activities which included Robert Frost’s being blinded by the snow and sun on his podium, so that he couldn’t read his new poem for JFK but instead spoke another poem from memory, “The Gift Outright”.
     Then came JFK’s memorable speech, “Ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country.”  A 20 year old Poli-Sci student was completely blown away!
     That night the 4 of us attended one of the five inaugural balls.  It was all beyond belief!  That was what I remember of the 1960 election. Babbie Baldwin Miller

11/1/20 — You win the prize, Babbie!  That is an incredible story!  How amazing that you were actually there!!!  Kim

11/1/20 — Thank you, Kim. Although I didn’t have anyone come to my door for trick or treating, i ended up with 2 small birthday cakes! You can’t beat that! Jennifer Bagster-Collins Seaver

11/2/20 — Amazing story Babbie!  What an adventure! I, too, went to a rally in Springfield. Linda Baldanzi talked me into going with her. What I remember was marching up and down waving signs and singing “ Lets vote for Foster Furcolo”. My then boyfriend, now husband, John, drove up from NYC to surprise me.  Someone at MHC told him where I was and he was stunned to discover Linda and me marching and singing.
     I’m convinced I’m the only Republican on this chat list and after reading all your comments, I’m beginning to think I was the only Republican in our class. Cheers, Carol Spalding Bulkeley

(Editor’s note:  We are now on the eve of the election.  We’ve kept ourselves chatting about other things for as long as possible.  Scary.)